Chevy Volt Update for 07-18-11 (Reprised)
Among the predications I’ve made regarding Chevy’s Volt is that its costs, in general, render it ridiculously uneconomical. Not only does its sky-high MSRP of $41,000 ($33,500 with the federal tax credit) place it outside the consideration of most the population which must buy the car in large numbers in order for it to make the slightest profit, the replacement cost of its battery pack, the life of which no one knows, is at least $8000.00 and possibly more. It’s highly likely to be the most expensive part in any dealer’s parts inventory. By way of comparison, one could easily have an engine rebuilt three times over for the replacement cost of a single Volt battery.
For those interested in reading my scribblings on the Volt visit the SMM Electric Vehicles archive. Incidentally, I saw my first Volt a few days ago in its native habitat. It was actually being driven and was apparently owned by an actual person. This is significant in that I live in the Dallas/Ft. Worth Metroplex, an area–due to its high year-round temperatures–ideal for electric vehicles. It’s also an area with a very large and mobile population, a population whose work commute can easily exceed 100 miles a day. I’ve seen one Volt. Not a good sign for Chevy, particularly considering the likelihood that even at $41,000, Chevy is losing money on every Volt it builds.
[NOTE: Circa 01-01-12, I have seen a total of three Volts in the first year they’ve been on the street. My musical pursuits require me to make no fewer than six trips per week on the busiest highways in the Metroplex, so I’m probably more likely than Joe or Jane Average to spot a Volt, particularly since I’ve had my eye out for them.]
[NOTE-NOTE: As I’ll report in the near future, not only is Chevy losing money on every Volt it builds, it has—in cooperation with the Obama Administration—completely redefined the term “losing money,” in almost unimaginable ways.]
But now comes interesting news from Green Auto Blog about a Volt belonging to Cars.Com. It seems that Cars.Com’s long-term test Volt (sounds odd—“test Volt”–no?) was in an accident. And it cost $14,187 to repair. That’s right, nearly half its post-federal tax rebate cost.
Why would it cost so much? We all know that auto repair, and particularly body repair costs are very high, but even more so with the Volt. The Volt requires multiple heat exchangers, engine control electronics far more expensive that those in other vehicles, and a variety of other expensive differences that stuck the vehicle in the repair shop for nine weeks—more than two months. I’m sure that such things are far more expensive due to their rarity as well. It simply costs much more to manufacture 10 items than ten thousand. In addition, it’s highly doubtful that dealers stock Volt parts; most don’t even sell Volts. Virtually anything a Volt needs—apart from consumables shared by a variety of Chevy vehicles—would have to be specially ordered.
Those driving the vehicle at the time of the accident are indeed fortunate that the battery pack was not damaged (apparently it wasn’t; there is no mention of this in the article). Lithium-ion batteries contain substances that must be separated at all times. If they are allowed to combine through even a pinhole, fire and even explosion are the rapid and inevitable consequences. In addition, the battery contains a great deal of electrical power such that it is actually dangerous, even potentially deadly, to the occupants of a wounded Volt, or to unwary first responders. This is true even for mechanics without the proper tools, safety equipment and training.
Hmm. If I was an actuary for an insurance company, I suspect I’d be advising my company to greatly increase the price—and greatly increase the deductible–of any Volt policy. Wouldn’t you?
In addition, the Volt is a bizarre and costly cross between a hybrid and an EV. It has not only all of the hardware and software necessary to allow it to function as a hybrid, but all of the hardware and software to allow it to function as an EV and as a conventional, gasoline powered vehicle. That’s right: GM has designed a vehicle with three times the complexity and repair cost of a conventional vehicle costing only half as much. Who could possibly resist that siren song?
So to recap:
(1) The Volt sells for $41,000, and as much as $65,000, yet Chevy makes no profit at all on the vehicle. [Stay Tuned, Gentle Readers, but take your blood pressure meds in advance when I fill you in—in the near future—on the real costs of the Volt.]
(2) Some dealers are applying for the $7500 tax credit themselves and selling essentially brand new Volts as used vehicles, for as much as $65,000. What could they know that we don’t? Perhaps that the Volt cannot succeed and will be nothing but an albatross around the necks of any associated with it?
(3) The Volt’s weak gasoline engine requires premium fuel and achieves less fuel economy than a great many conventional vehicles with more flexible and powerful engines that burn regular fuel (Fun Fact: Federal regulations prevent the importation of small, clean burning diesel engines that get 50 MPG or more. Such engines are common in European cars).
(4) Now we learn that repair costs for the Volt greatly exceed conventional vehicles in the same general class.
(5) The Volt’s real world electric range in real world driving conditions is apparently about 25 miles. No one knows how long a Volt battery will last or precisely how much it will cost, but GM has never quoted a replacement cost less than $8000.00—about 20% of the Volt’s MSRP.
(6) As I reported in prior posts, because of the ridiculously high purchase price, even if the Volt managed 200 MPG in a combination of electric/gas-powered driving, it would be virtually impossible for anyone to break even in fuel savings when compared with the cost of even high-end conventionally powered high mileage vehicles. With more realistic mileage figures, it would take about two decades. When one considers that at least one battery replacement would be mandatory in that time frame, breaking even on operating costs is a fantasy. When one considers that very few people ever keep a car for its entire lifetime—and that life span is usually less than 10 years—breaking even is absolutely impossible.
But other than that, the Volt is a great car that will change the world, and everybody should buy one. Hey, if the Federal Government can make you buy a specific light bulb and health insurance, why not a specific car? And as long as the Federal Government actually owns a substantial chunk of GM—about 26% at last check–why not the Volt? As Joe Biden would likely say, it’s the patriotic thing to do!
Added Note: A commenter on my last post on the Volt noted that he has ordered one and expects to be very happy with it, considering it to be superior to the BMW he is currently driving.
I thanked him for his comments, and replied:
I care not what anyone else drives; they’re free to buy what pleases them. This is one of the great things about America. What I am concerned about is the choices made by a company in which I am–through no choice of my own–part owner. In that case, I expect that company to build cars that make a profit. The Volt does not and will not, unless the government so regulates and mandates the free enterprise system that it will no longer be free and none of us will have the choice to buy whichever vehicle pleases us. I suspect that the Volt is part of the vanguard of that Socialist revolution.
By all means, buy one if you please and I hope you enjoy it. But my point remains: The Volt makes no economic sense for virtually all of the American public. No car company can remain in business manufacturing a product like that. The question remains: Why is GM manufacturing a car that not only makes no profit, but probably costs it money, and does not have the infrastructure–which is also ridiculously expensive–to make it even remotely viable? It would seem to have nothing to do with free enterprise and individual choice, would it?
And this is the primary problem with the Volt. GM is far from sustainably profitable, having avoided a normal bankruptcy proceeding that would have allowed it to reorganize and renegotiate its union contracts so that it could once again be profitable. Preserving union power and cash, was of course, Mr. Obama’s main concern. Preserving the rights of shareholders and creditors and supporting the free enterprise system were not.
The result is that people who had legitimate financial stakes in the company were stiffed, wealth was not only not created but thrown away, and the American public will almost certainly take a bath to the tune of tens of billions that GM will never pay back. That and we, the taxpayers, still own $2.1 billion of preferred GM stock and 61% of its common equity. As an unwilling stockholder, I’m a bit concerned by a company building a car that makes not a dime of profit, and probably loses money. Shouldn’t every owner of GM–every American taxpayer–be concerned about that?
UPDATE: 082512 2210
Reader “Steve” has added a number of comments suggesting that I ignored a later article relating to the original cars.com article, via greenautoblog, from which I quoted in my original article. That later article may be found here. The implication is that I was somehow purposely deceiving readers and depriving them of complete information–of which I was unaware–until Steve kindly brought it to my attention, for which I extend my thanks. By all means, take the link and explore the article if the spirit moves you.
For those not in a clicking mood, another quote from that later article:
Tamblyn said it came down mainly to the additional cooling systems and reprogramming. A normal car with air conditioning can have as few as two or three such systems. The Volt uses additional ones to cool the battery and electronics, so no fewer than five heat exchangers, or radiators, and associated plumbing had to be replaced. The Volt is also highly computerized, and the car goes into a safe mode after a collision that requires the engine control module to be reprogrammed. ‘Other hybrids don’t do that,’ Tamblyn said.
I know that an additional $2181–the difference in cost to repair a Volt compared to a Malibu with similar damages–to repair any damaged vehicle is a significant sum to me, and I suspect the same is true for most readers.
Steve also added this quote from the article, which he obviously considers quite damning:
For what it’s worth, a Malibu owner might not have gotten past the estimate phase. With a sticker price north of $40,000, our Volt was worth repairing. At a base price below $22,000, a modest Malibu might have been totaled by the insurer.
All of this merely continues to prove that the Volt is more expensive to repair–in this case nearly $2200 more to repair–than a normally fueled car. In addition, the article Steve cites indicates that the Volt repair took an additional “week to a weak and a half” longer than normal. Suggesting that a Volt costing some $40,000 is worth repairing when a far less expensive but more flexible and useful vehicle might be totaled is hardly a stirring recommendation for buying a Volt.
The economics of the Volt are simply not improving. As I’ve demonstrated in other articles, each Volt receives as much as a quarter of a millions dollars in direct government subsidies. Volts are not making a cent of profit for GM, and while overall Volt sales appear to be up this year (I’m a bit suspicious that most of those are fleet sales to General Electric and the U.S. Government–no figures of which I’m aware are available), they remain far, far below the level necessary to make even a conventional vehicle even remotely profitable.
As I’ve said many times, if you want a Volt, being fully informed of it’s substantial downside, and if you can afford it, by all means, buy one for each day of the week if you like. I hope you enjoy it/them. However, for the average American car buyer, the Volt remains a car costing far too much and delivering far too little. For the American taxpayer, the Volt-and GM–are a disaster.
Oh, and Steve, any political commentary I’ve added to this series has to do with the fact that Mr. Obama has drug every American voter, and me, into the ownership of GM and the support of the United Auto Worker’s Union. Every indication is that we’ll never come close to getting our money back. Since he drug us all through that political doorway, it is more than fair to examine the related political motivations and issues, isn’t it?
Stately McDaniel Manor 
Sir, in case you didn’t notice it was not Mr. Obama, but MR.BUSH!!! Mr. Obama did not offer to bail out, this was Mr. BUSH’S brain child that was laid in Mr. Obama’s lap. So, lets get it straight.
Dear Lee Cipriani:
There is no question that the TARP program under which GM and Chrysler received initial bail-out funds was begun in the last days of the Bush Administration. I have never denied or avoided this, but did not mention it in detail in this particular article as it was not the topic. Mr. Bush’s book “Decision Points” makes his reasons for that decision quite clear and reasonably compelling. My concern is with what Mr. Obama did thereafter, which was to consolidate Union control over GM and Chrysler and arguably, to interfere with business decisions to the detriment of the taxpayer and GM and Chrysler. It was, for example, Mr. Obama that stiffed shareholders and fired the CEO of GM, and one would have to be unobservant indeed not to understand that it has been Mr. Obama’s greenie desires that have kept the Chevy Volt afloat long after it should have gone the way of the Esdel, as it surely eventually will.
Mr. Obama too, could have returned complete control of the automakers to the private sector and removed all government influence in their operations. He chose instead to twice up the CAFE mileage figures, to ridiculous levels that if sustained will dramatically increase the cost of new cars. Whatever ills one believes Mr. Bush began in his final days in office could have been erased by Mr. Obama. He did not erase those policies and now owns them.
Thanks for reading and for your comment!
PS: You may find this op-ed interesting: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/06/10/truth-about-gm-bailout/
Seems to me Mr. Obama is now boasting about the auto bailouts. If what you say is true – and it is – then why is Obama taking credit for the auto bailouts?
Dear Corneliusvansant:
Mr. Obama has repeatedly demonstrated his tendency to take credit for the accomplishments of others and to exaggerate or lie about his own. Obviously the “I got Bin Laden and saved the auto industry” trope will be one of his repeated themes for this campaign. In my lifetime, I’ve never seen a POTUS so utterly careless with the truth and so utterly disdainful about the intelligence of the public.
It is refreshing to read an article so informative and well written by an intelligent and politically astute individual. Thank you for setting it straight regarding Obama’s debacle of accomplishments.
Dear Cecilla:
You’re most kind. Thanks for reading and for your comment.
Check out my comments below; I think you will find yourself mislead if you just read what is in this article (and ignore the political bias) If you want info about the cost of owning a Volt, this article does not contain valid arguments.
Dear Steve:
Thanks for your multiple comments. I’ve added an update to the original article to address the issues you’ve raised. I suspect most readers may not agree with your assessment that the article “does not contain valid argument,” but as always, I’ll leave that to them.
Thanks again!
It’s too bad that this article is so politically laden – It has made me toss out all of the other good work you did to investigate this car.
Oh FYI:
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2011/07/wrecked-carscom-chevy-volt-repaired-what-did-it-cost.html
“As we reported in May, Cars.com’s long-term Chevrolet Volt was involved in a collision that sent it to the body shop, and we just got it back. Though it cost more than the initial estimate, we were pleased to determine that the cost to repair a plug-in car wasn’t as high as we had feared. In fact, it was only $2,181 more expensive than it would be to repair a 2011 Chevrolet Malibu subjected to a similar front-end “hit,” according to West Loop Auto Body, which restored our Volt. It also took longer.”
So thanks for reporting the $14K repair cost, but not for reporting that a Chevy Malibu would have been around $11,900 for the same damage.
oops forgot this part:
“For what it’s worth, a Malibu owner might not have gotten past the estimate phase. With a sticker price north of $40,000, our Volt was worth repairing. At a base price below $22,000, a modest Malibu might have been totaled by the insurer.”
You need to get your fact straight, horrible article.
25 miles average? Perhaps in Siberia. Easily hit 40+ driving without a lead foot you uneducated buffoon. What dealer do you shop at that sells them at 60k+? Anyone with half a brain can do a simple Google check to find them 35-45k, and great deals 32-35k. That’s loaded. Don’t bother replying to any of that, it’s clear you are have no clue about the volt. Have you ever even driven one? Bless your little heart.
The Volt could be cheaper. It’s not for everyone granted. There are leases out there that are the cost of gas depending on how you drive. Again, not for everyone. You aren’t just paying for “no gas”. It’s an electric car (gasoline recharges the electric battery, and slightly boosts it time to time giving it that slight hybrid factor-not-a-hybrid factor). Electric cars are cool, no Tesla but they are pretty sweet. High tech, although the layout could have been a little better in my opinion.
On a side note, engineers on it said 16 years on the battery. True? Who knows. So far it has no degration in 2-3 years from hundreds of users. Backed by almost a decade and 100k miles…it could be a lot worse.
If this comes off as an attack, good. Go write about something else, you clearly do not understand automotive. Go do some philosophy or the sorts. And write a nice long reply that I won’t read – others should have a hoot how you debate this with more ridiculous “statements”.
Dear Steve:
Normally, I don’t allow personal insults from anyone here. It’s simply rude and indicative of insecurity and a lack of coherent arguments. However, sometimes I allow them as they speak for themselves and I have more than enough faith in readers to accurately judge who is writing in good faith and is supporting their arguments.
Suffice it to say that everything I have represented as fact in this article is more than sufficiently sourced. You may disagree with my opinions–which are clearly represented as opinions–at your leisure, but not rudely. Multiple sources, for example, in my past writings on the Volt confirm that dealers were selling Volts during its first model year for $60,000 or more. This is hardly surprising as GM’s only statistics reveal that Volt buyers are in the upper echelon of earners in America. Joe average American is not buying a Volt, but wealthy Americans capable of paying that kind of money for an unusual, status-symbol vehicle are.
You might wish to stop back next week for my newest electric vehicle article. You note correctly that this year, Volts have been leased and sold at significant discounts, which does not speak well to their viability in the free market, nor does the fact that the Volt assembly line will soon be shut down for at least a month for the second time in a year.
You’re welcome to comment here, but any future comments consisting of the kind of evidence of poor manners demonstrated by the comment to which I reply will simply be deleted.
My Volt averages 35 miles a charge in Michigan, less in Winter, and more in the Spring and Fall.
It costs the same to insure as my wife’s Acura TL.
The 5 yr cost of ownership is also estimated to be similar to her TL.
The acceleration in the 2 cars is similar. The TL has a lighter nimble feel, but the Volt feels more stable on snowy roads. Overall, I think the Volt is a more pleasant driving experience than the Acura.
While it may be true that govt subsidies have supported electric cars, it I can drive my 25.6 mile round trip to work, run some errands and drive to the golf course using no gasoline. My income taxes ‘susidize’ the 20 continuous years of miltary conflict that have been required to protect the oil supplies for gasoline vehicles. No US soldier will ever need to die to protect oil for my Volt. I can get to work and recreation quite nicely without oil.
Dear Walter Biber:
I’m glad to hear your Volt meets your needs. However, please consider the fact that none of us can do without oil, and it was involved in the manufacture of virtually every part of your Volt, and it, and/or coal, is involved in producing the electricity on which your Volt runs. I also recommend you read my most recent EV article that explains why EVs are not, in fact, money saving propositions.
Well, I’ve got 53671 miles on the volt .. Used 351 gals of gas , my computer says .. I think it’s 363 gals.. I probably miss added somewhere along the way when filling up .. Be that as it may, I was spending about 530$$ bucks on gas per month, now I spend about 20$$ .. Cost 20$$ per month in electricity which comes from the south texas nuclear plant down in bay city .. Got to be some savings somewhere .. I’ve had it for 26 months.. It’s been a good car .. Got some rattles .. But that’s it .. I wouldn’t recommend it for a long distance vehicle , gets 41 to 46 mpg on gas at conservative speeds .. Head winds and up hill will bring the fuel economy down to the low to mid 30s .. I get 42 to 45 miles on electricity .. The car just works for me .. The real answer to whether it is economical or not will come in 2 years when I quit work and rely on the batteries to get me from place to place .. The battery replacement cost is a worry at this point .. I’m saving up ..
Dear fred heile:
Hi there and thanks for the update. As you note, EVs have some potential, but the ultimate problems are battery life and replacement costs, and the fact that EVs are simply not flexible enough for the majority of Americans. Unfortunately, your first battery change will probably wipe away most, if not all, of the savings you’ve managed on gasoline, to say nothing of the difference in initial purchase price with a similar, conventionally powered vehicle.
Continued good luck, though.
It’s 2014 and my volt will be 3 years old in May .. Have 62356 miles on it .. The computer says I get 167 miles per gal of gas used .. It needs washing and the interior vacuumed .. The oil still shows that I have 58% life left .. Everything still works: electronics etc. .. The initial cost was a lot, but so is the cost of medium upper level cars that use gas/diesel and oil .. Resale value isn’t the best, but i don’t plan on trading the thing, ever .. At least that’s what I plan .. It costs about 25$$ per month in electricity for me to drive 1100 to 1200 miles .. So far so good .. I live in texas, not a lot of support for these things outside of Austin .. I used to care about the image I project, now I don’t .. Saw a volt downtown brenham with license plate that said “a & m volt” .. Hmmm .. Fred
Dear Fred:
Good for you! Probably living in Texas, you have a more or less best case climate scenario for the vehicle. I’ll be posting a new article soon about battery replacement charges that might well exceed the MSRP new.
Thanks for your comment.
That’s correct Mike, I do use some oil, but my Volt allows me to live without both foreign oil and shale oil. I can also live without the coal since my power comes from a nuclear plant.
In my Volt, I used 109 gallons of gasoline in its’ first year to go 14,400 miles.
My Ford Escape Hybrid would use about 425 gallons to go the same distance. Any car AVERAGING less than 33 mpg would have used more than the Escape.
So, again, no US soldiers needed to fight or die to protect a supply of foreign oil for my Volt.
Dear Walter Biber:
Thanks for your reply! If Mr. Obama would quit being such a greenie lunatic, no one would have to die for oil as we now have more than enough on our own soil, but that’s another post for another time. By the way, have you checked to see how fond environmentalists are of nuclear power of late?
I always wondered what the real world distance the Volt could travel on battery alone.
I live in Cleveland where when it snows you sit in traffic for maybe an hour or so with the heat running full blast, wipers, head lights, rear window deicer and radio turned on. Even with a gas engine it’s tough for the alternator to keep up at idle with all the accessories turned on. I could understand the Volt only getting 25 miles on a charge during a winter storm. I do have to say the Volt is a pretty good looking car, too bad it has the performance of a Smart Car.
Dear Mike Plaga:
Thanks for you comment and welcome to SMM. As you note, the Volt manages only about 25 mile per charge under ideal conditions. In cold weather, its battery capacity will almost certainly be next to nothing, and even GM has admitted its heater is anemic at best, while still quickly draining its battery. GM would tell you its on-board premium-only gas engine is a feature, not a bug in an electric wonder car, but that engine is not only expensive in terms of fuel, it’s as anemic as the heater in terms of power and gets inferior mileage pushing the overly heavy Volt.
As you say, the Volt isn’t a bad looking vehicle, but with many conventional and fully useful vehicles getting 40 MPG and hybrids with none of the drawbacks of the Volt nearing 50 MPG–and also being far more affordable than the Volt–one just has to scratch their head in amazement that any auto manufacturer, particularly one on the road to a real bankruptcy, would produce a car so few people want, can afford, and which not only makes not a penny of profit, each Volt to roll off the assembly line (when it’s not shut down again) actually loses money.
I suspect that if Mr. Obama lost the election, the Volt would have been immediately–and quietly–discontinued. Now, taxpayers will be forced to subsidize it for at least four more years.
My Volt averages 35 miles a charge over the course of a year in Michigan, less in Winter and more in Spring through Fall.
All cars get less mileage in Winter, pushing through snow. The Volt is more sensitive because the heat comes from the battery energy.
On an average Winter day, I have a range of 27-28 miles on battery power.
Wow. I bought a Volt a few weeks ago. So far so good. Rides nice and my electric range has been between 35 and 50 miles
Bill h is simply a fibber to put it mildly. My sister’s idiot husband got an Obamamobile a year ago and usually gets between 10 and 15 miles on a charge which takes 18 hours
Dear joe b:
Even Chevrolet, which originally hyped the Volt as getting 50 miles on a full charge, almost immediately backed off that figure and has been advertising–when it bothers to mention range at all–35 miles instead. While it is possible to get 50 or so miles under absolutely ideal conditions while working assiduously to wring every solitary volt (pun!) out of a Volt, for real world, practical driving, around 25 miles is much more like it. I suspect your brother in law’s experience is the norm.
I’ve owned a 2012 Volt Premium for about 8 months, actual mileage per charge on pure electric mode is easily 35 miles and with regenerative coasting and braking as much as 45-50. People who have very little experience with actually driving one are full of misinformation. It also requires very little maintenance, I’ve got 10K miles on mine and still have 71% of oil life left. I’ve taken 1500 mile round trips and still average 65 mpg +, and while in electric mode I produce no emissions. It’s not for everyone but it is fun to drive, really fast and powerful and I would go out and buy another one if my was wrecked without any hesitation. It is the future.
Dear Jeff:
Thanks for the update. I’m glad you’re enjoying the vehicle and it works for you. However, I suspect it may be a bit to early to suggest EVs are the future. The Volt, in its current form and price, certainly is not.
Mike McDaniel does not even bother to hide the fact that he gets his information from Fox News.
I’m happy you were not the man in charge when they invented the first combustion engine. We’d all still be picking up horse dung.
Wingnuts will say anything to make the President look bad. Mike is as predictable as the wind in west Texas.
First off insurance is actually less expensive than other cars priced in the same catagory. Why Mike? Probably because insurance companies consider Volt buyers more intelligent than the average beer drinking pickup driving Texan.
I really like the comment Mike throws out concerning his observation of few Volts on Dallas freeways most of which are 5 or 6 lanes of 80 mph traffic. Kind of like driving in a demolition derby. Is that because idiots like this Mike character are scanning 6 lanes looking for Volts! Do you also check out the oncoming lanes Mike?
Not to worry though Mike, it may not be the Volt that puts big oil down in the next 10 years or so. It just might be that 50 mpg diesel car you mention, or it might just be the expanded gear transmissions that are going into all new cars.
Mike stay in your cave and complain about all new innovations. People like you are getting so boring or many say “republican like”.
In your world the government should never have supported the first drones built because they were not cost efficient or for that matter should never have helped subsidize the fledgling computer industry. I’m sure those first room size computers were not too cost effecient either. Apple, what a waste of time. Right Mike?
One last question: Can just anybody start a blog and just make things up as they go?
Thanks for the update. I’m glad you’re enjoying the vehicle and it works for you. However, I suspect it may be a bit to early to suggest EVs are the future. The Volt, in its current form and price, certainly is not.
Just a few comments. I am about to lease a new Volt. We will see how it goes.
–Regarding repair costs – I was rear-ended in an Avalanche … the $36K sticker price truck (2002) cost more than $20K to repair in 2005. My Mazda Miata has also had absurd accident repair costs compared to MSRP. The Volt does not seem especially out of line.
–Premium gas is not required. It is only highly recommended since it has a longer shelf life, and GM believes that some folks will go months between fill-ups. The Volt’s gas generator will run just fine on regular.
–Just a thought: Since R&D budgets have been diminishing dramatically over the past few decades, GM’s loss on each Volt may be an innovative way to blend research & development with the commercial market place, much like the software industry does with Beta testing. Perhaps instead of socialist stupidity, maybe it is a brilliant move to offset costs and prevent the total demise of essential R&D.
I’ll let you know what my Volt experience is like after I have it for awhile.
Dear Jim Spurr:
Thanks for your comment! And I’d indeed be interested in your practical experience. Everything I’ve ever found on the Volt–including conversations with folks at Chevrolet dealerships–has supported the necessity of using only premium fuel in the Volt, so I’d be interested in the source of your information on that point.
In many ways, hybrid vehicles make far more sense than true EVs at this point in time, and the Volt is actually a more than usually complex and expensive hybrid. As I’ve always held, if it meets your needs and you can afford it, have at it. The problem is that at its current MSRP and current level of technology, it’s just not a viable mass market product, which would be even more obvious without hefty federal and state financial incentives.
Oh and as to the idea that the Volt is a clever way to retain R&D, no company can maintain those kinds of losses for any purpose for long.
Thanks again and I’ll look forward to hearing from you.
Dear Mike,
I took delivery on Wednesday. So far, so good – no surprises, but it’s still early.
As far as the fuel issue, keep in mind that I am in the Detroit area, so everyone here either knows an automotive engineer or is one, as well as plenty of people that work in dealerships and in other roles in auto companies, suppliers, and service shops (I even know someone that works at Onstar). It doesn’t take long for people to figure out the difference between reality and “the company line”, so for the most part, all pretenses are dropped around here. In fact, the town I live in is home to the GM Proving Ground. We actually see future vehicles driving around with camouflage masking on a regular basis. My sources include a Chevy Salesman, a Certified Volt specialist (who cites actual experiences of actual Volt owners he works with), and an online Volt forum where Volt owers talk about their experiences. Also, my brother is an automotive engineer, and while he does not have first hand Volt knowledge, he confirms the concepts based on what he knows about GM and engineering.
Everything specified for the Volt is based on wringing-out every last erg of energy opportunity. For example, the tires are special to maximize efficiency, but you can replace them with ordinary tires. The information I now have says there are two primary reasons for premium: 1) shelf life [my current projection is that I will fill up once about every 7-8 weeks] and 2) about ten percent in gas mileage when running on the generator. — My conclusion based on this is: if the difference between regular and premium is 10% or less, I will buy premium. If it is more, I will buy regular.
FYI: based on the current promotions and targeted incentives, I am leasing my new Volt for about $20/mo more than the 2010 Malibu I just turned in (both at 39 months with full warranty throughout) I expect to save more than that in gas.
Summertime update: So far, I love this car. My wife was initially wary, but she is now in-love, too. It is so darned quiet and responsive, tight, comfortable, and well engineered. Love the hatchback for access & cargo. I find the high-tech electronic control panel and touch screen were not expertly designed, and as a result, can be quite confusing. I have most of it figured out now, but the radio still frustrates me. It’s a bad UI design (they need to hire some new UI & controls design/software engineers – Note to GM: if you are reading, this – I am qualified and could definitely help!)
So, how has it performed?
–I got in March, and have only filled the tank twice – and the last tank is still on 3/4. (it did come originally with a full tank) When you fill a Volt, that means only 5-7 gallons, since the tank is only 9 gallons. I have literally put more gas in my lawnmower.
–I have only put regular gas in it, with no issues
–I don’t drive particularly conservatively. I have never thought of myself as a particularly aggressive driver (for Detroit anyway – when I drive in other cities though, I feel like a professional road gladiator compared to other drivers … maybe the fact that we have no public transportation changes the bar on driving style in the area.) Anyway, I don’t punch the accelerator from a stop (unlike my brother), but I will not hesitate when needed – and when needed, the Volt delivers without hesitation.
–The car has a nifty readout where you can see current and lifetime energy performance. I just hit 120 mpg lifetime, and expect it to keep increasing, at least until winter. I am easily achieving $100 per month savings in gas after correcting for electricity.
–My current impression is that as long as you drive with the pretty leaf ball floating in the middle of the acceleration/efficiency display, you are getting relatively constant electric power efficiency in a given speed range for given weather conditions. It’s not hard to do. It seems to be optimal under 50 mph or so, and trying to drive incrementally slower to be more energy efficient is only of marginal benefit. Accel / Decel habits have a *much* greater impact (watch the pretty leaf energy ball!), as well as weather conditions.
–Weather can have the biggest impact. I feel like I get optimal efficiency between 40 and 75 deg F. Except for 1 day, I have never gotten less than 30 miles on a charge, but since spring (which came very late this year in Michigan), I have been consistently between 44 and 48 miles per charge – although on the very hottest days it may have drifted down to 41-42.
–On the gas generator, the mpg appears to be in the 32-35 mpg area on regular, but with limited use on gas, I don’t have enough data yet. Unlike a direct-drive internal combustion powertrain, the generator runs at a constant speed (although I have noticed occasionally that it will change that constant speed – not sure when/why) I think there are 2 or 3 speeds, but again, not enough experience yet to know. Because the speed is constant and only serves to provide electricity, the mpg efficiency is essentially constant for the current electric drive motor performance / behavior (see weather and accel / decel comments above)
–I also have a Chevy Equinox that has an instantaneous and moving average mpg readout. I have become obsessed with driving to maximize mpg on that vehicle since I can immediately see how huge the impact of minor changes in driving style and behavior can be. Every car should have this … people will get far more fuel efficiency by knowing exactly what happens to fuel efficiency under various driving events, behaviors, and conditions. Because of this experience, I am also able to understand how much more even and stable the energy performance is in the Volt as driving varies compared to an internal combustion powertrain.
At this time, I think the biggest barrier to success in the consumer market for the Volt is marketing. To a person, everyone I talk to who doesn’t have personal knowledge of the Volt (and there aren’t many), they all think it has a limited range (like 30-40 miles). They seem to have no comprehension of the 300+ miles in the 9 gallon gas tank, so it can go anywhere most any other car can go when you need it – no more risk of being stranded than any other car, and if as long as you keep filling up, you would never need to charge the battery, so that cross-country drive-sharing non-stop road-trip is possible.
I generally choose to lease cars for many reasons, and apparently so do many other people. My current Volt lease for a comparably equipped vehicle is only $20/mo more than the Malibu I just turned in – but I guarantee I am saving much more than that in energy costs. Since the battery warranty is well in excess of the lease duration, I have no worries about that either.
I am glad the latest Volt commercials on TV are focusing on the total range and seamless gas/electric cut-over mechanism. I truly believe this is a car for a segment of the masses that drive around 10-12K miles per year, and generally under 40 miles per day, but still have the need for the longer runs. It seats 4, and has decent cargo space. Sure, it’s not yet the price of the Chevy Cruze, but it is directly comparable to a well appointed Malibu (without considering the energy cost savings). As they sell more, prices can come down – the word just needs to get out.
Dear Jim Spurr:
Thanks for the informative update. Unfortunately, the real problem is the purchase price. The Volt obtains the ultimate range you cite because it is a highly complex, very expensive hybrid that must have two complete, yet interlinked, drive systems. Until the price of a Volt can approach that of a compact in its class that gets the same or better mileage, what’s the reason to buy a much more expensive Volt?
Thanks Mike,
True, the purchase price is on the higher end, however at 120 mpg, I am wondering what conventional cars (or even conventional hybrids) are getting better than half that, let alone the same or better. Since I tend to lease cars, I am don’t have much comment on the financial indicators for a purchase – – I don’t usually find a purchase to be the right choice for me under most circumstances. If you are a frequent lessee, it is hard to argue with the economics for an equivalently featured vehicle with only a mild consideration for the enhanced fuel efficiency. If you get the 98 mpg as the EPA rates it, let alone the 120 mpg I am getting, it’s an economic slam-dunk compared to other similar vehicles (of any kind). Saving a $100/mo in energy makes a big dent in the lease payment of a vehicle. With most buyers financing new vehicle purchases, I imagine it would change the financial dynamics there too. I am not saying it’s for everyone, but if you drive new high-end trim American cars and are ok with 4 seats and drive around 12,000 miles per year, it should not automatically be off the radar.
I have read your characterization of the complexity issue also. True, it is more complex than a true EV and more complex than a conventional internal combustion vehicle, but the drivetrain is very similar to any other hybrid. Here is a description of the Toyota Prius drivetrain:
“The heart of the 2013 Toyota Prius is its Hybrid Synergy Drive system, consisting of two motor-generators that can power the car solely on electricity (at speeds up to 30 mph), add torque to supplement the power of its 1.8-liter four-cylinder engine, and recharge the battery pack during engine overrun or braking.
The power split device is the heart of the Toyota Prius. This is a clever gearbox that hooks the gasoline engine, generator and electric motor together. It allows the car to operate like a parallel hybrid — the electric motor can power the car by itself, the gas engine can power the car by itself or they can power the car together. The power split device also allows the car to operate like a series hybrid — the gasoline engine can operate independently of the vehicle speed, charging the batteries or providing power to the wheels as needed. It also acts as a continuously variable transmission (CVT), eliminating the need for a manual or automatic transmission. Finally, because the power split device allows the generator to start the engine, the car does not need a starter.”
Note: the Prius seems to get 40-55 mpg.
These are virtually the identical components that make up the Volt’s drivetrain, except Toyota lines them up differently (more of an inline series with the gearbox, while GM’s is more parallel linkage to the gearbox)
There is definitely technological magic that GM employs to optimize the complex system, but in this modern age, no one seems to be afraid of complex software anymore. You might find that by some measures, Microsoft Office is more complex than the software in a Volt. I spent time in GM in the 90’s when engineering was all about creating highly complex simulation software so they could reduce prototype testing. As an oversimplification, I will state that the simulation software had triple the complexity of the vehicle control software, since it had to include the vehicle control software, vehicle mechanical behavior simulation software, and the external world simulation software [ e.g. brake control module software simulation (1), reacts to wheel dynamics simulation (2), reacts to road surface condition simulation (3) – – and there are also inputs for the human behavior in the simulator ] The actual simulation solution complexity ratio is probably more like 10x greater than the actual control software.
After 20 years of refining those simulation solutions that started with the motivation to save the extreme costs of (sometimes hand-made) prototype vehicles, the happy side effect was the production of highly robust and sophisticated control systems software. This kind of complex control software is now very routine after 2+ decades of maturity.
Mike while your doing your research check out those mining trucks that run in the largest mines in the world and run 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
Report back to your readers on the technology that runs those trucks and tell us how many years that technology has been used to run those trucks.
March 10th will be the one year mark with my Volt. 227mpg lifetime. Getting between 38-44 miles to a charge. I love this car. As more cars are sold the costs attributed to R&D, subsidies and so on go down. Those crowing loudest about the Volt costing GM $250,000 a unit, have revise that figure to $40,000 a unit and then ultimately quietly gone away.
Its funny, those with no real world experience seem to be the worst purveyors of misinformation about this masterwork of American engineering. The FACTS are, in my case: $7,500 tax credit, a savings of $2,000 over 5 years on my insurance, $8500 in gas savings over 5 years just driving to and from work. About $700 in savings over 5 years on oil changes. (Only needs an oil change ever 2-2.5 years)
I have burned through the gas the dealer put in and filled the tank ONCE since last March. That’s reality.
As for the battery costs. The DOE has projected that battery cost by 2015 will be 1/3 of the cost they were when the Volt came out. Better still the DOE prediction is an 100mile battery will cost $5,000 by 2020.
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/20/doe-estimates-100-mile-automotive-batteries-will-cost-just-5-00/
78% of the population drive less than 40 miles a day. Thus the Volt is perfectly suited for most drivers.
http://gm-volt.com/2007/12/06/how-did-gm-determine-that-78-of-commuters-drive-less-than-40-miles-per-day/
See the funny thing about facts as well as science is, that you don’t have to believe in them in order for them to be true. One can easily deny facts and reality all day long and this does not in any way diminish their validity.
Spewing misinformation either makes a one a liar or simply incompetent.
Dear David O:
I’m glad you enjoy your Volt. However, holding a differing opinion doesn’t make one either a liar or incompetent. As is my practice here, I’ll let my readers determine such matters.
However, just a few thoughts: I wouldn’t put too much stock into DOE prognostications. They haven’t exactly been prescient in recent years. In addition, the small number of Volts sold, and even the most optimistic projects of future sales can’t possibly reduce the approximately $10,000 replacement cost of Volt batteries by 2/3. The economics simply aren’t there for such a dramatic reduction, nor are any incredible scientific breakthroughs on the horizon. Oh yes, and GM still isn’t making a penny on Volts; even they admit that.
While it may be true that 78% of the population drives less than 40 miles a day–I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on that for the sake of argument–that does not automatically make the Volt, or any EV, a rational choice for most drivers, as vehicles are purchased for far more reasons than that.
Facts are indeed interesting things. But the facts still stack up against Volt ownership for far too much of the public for Volts to stand on their own in the marketplace without massive governmental support. This is my primary point, and as unwilling part owner of GM, my largest concern.
Again, if you like your Volt and it meets your needs, good for you, but calling those who disagree liars and incompetents speaks to an emotional involvement that would seem to have little to do with science.
Thanks for your comment!
25 miles range? Maybe…but it would have to be the dead of winter, not in a garage, not warmed up by remote start, heat at full blast, and driving like a fool on the highway. I average 40 with aggressive driving and have topped well over 50 driving casually all off highway. I should add that I rarely use HVAC, but this could easily be compensated for by just driving around speed limit.
I have no fears about battery. By design it’s already limited to about half capacity so the odds of seeing an actual decrease in range in the lifetime of the car are pretty low. If there is a failure out of the 8 year warranty I’m positive there will be an abundance of used batteries. I had a Prius with 262k on it before some moron crashed into me. The battery failure rate for that car was was about half of a hundred of a percent and I could get a new battery for 150 dollars at the junkyard if I ever needed one. This is a different vehicle that uses a much larger battery, but the mechanics of the battery maintenance remain the same and I’m sure the results will be very similar.
If you’re going to complain about the volatility of batteries I guess you better stop using pretty much any electronic device made in the last decade…better lose that old watch too; it could explode at any minute! Seriously though, even smoke alarms come with lithium batteries these days.
The price argument is cute. Who are you to say this vehicle isn’t worth 41k? That’s like saying you shouldn’t pay more for a V8 because a V6 will do just fine. Perhaps some of us enjoy the silence of the electric motor just as much as others enjoy the rumble of their V8s. It’s a completely new kind of car and at any reasonable price there is a going to be slower adoption rate…just like literally everything else.What vehicle are you comparing it to for cost savings? Probably a hybrid car you were arguing isn’t worth over a conventional car just a few years ago. Arguing the price is too much is arguing purely on opinion, the car is selling just fine where it sits.
There are a lot of opinions in this post and it’s your blog so that’s perfectly okay; but the facts we have so far are starting to make your outlook pretty wrong.
Dear Tim:
Hi there and thanks for your comment. Interestingly, why should any driver have to drive conservatively merely to keep from running out of propulsive power? I’m glad to hear you’re getting up to 50–I assume you have a Volt–but I know a number of Volt owners who do not, for an instant, take exception to the 25 mile figure I list. In fact, I got it from them and various test sources.
Regarding battery life and performance, GM is not nearly as optimistic as you, and used batteries? For a line of cars with mandatory, periodic closed production? Not so likely.
You know there is a substantial difference between lithium ion batteries in consumer electronics and the very high voltage, high amp battery in the Volt, a battery that can, and has, started fires, and that can kill unwary first responders and mechanics, which tends not to be a problem with watches and laptops.
Who am I to say a Volt isn’t worth 41K? Who do I have to be? It’s certainly not worth it to me, and from Chevy’s sales figures, it’s not worth it to enough people to ever make the vehicle economically viable. As I’ve always said, if you like it and can afford it, buy it. Your choice. But when I’m unwilling part owner of GM, and when my taxes are subsidizing not only the construction but the point of sale purchase of the Volt, I do have some say. Even GM and the green-leaning automotive press are admitting its not economically rational.
Thanks again.
Spot on David O.. How can this Mike guy use the word science in any sentence that he is associated with?
I drive 38 miles to work. Plug in. And Mike its around a 6 to 7 hr. charge on a 110 Volt plug in. Drive home when I get off work. Plug in at my home, which by the way Mike, gets about half its electrical power from my solar panels. So to cut off any bs argument about alternative power generation Mike, my power is about as reliable as the sun coming up in the morning.
Oh, and one other thing on your price quote which is totally made up and way way off.
My fully loaded Volt, and I do mean every option available on the car cost before the 7,500$ tax credit was 33K. Granted it was a new car demo with 5K miles but 25,5K net cost to me is a heck of alot better than the price you pulled off Fox News and are reporting as fact. Oh no I used the word reporting in the same reply that also mentions your name. Reporters us facts bloggers don’t know the meaning of the word.
Mike I bet the Chevy dealer would even talk to you about trading that 1973 Chevy 3/4 ton 4wd pickup with a 454 and a 4 barrel!
But trading that baby in would be un Texas like. Right?
Mike have you even bothered to check prices on the internet or even the newspaper. Or God forbid call a Chevy dealer?
Bought a volt may 2011 .. Have 47000 miles on it of which 33000 are electric .. Drive 39.4 miles round trip to work and back home .. only on very cold days do I run out of battery .. I average about 40 miles per hr. which is key to getting the maximum out of the batteries .. In texas it gets hot and I use the ac with no noticeable reduction in battery performance when it’s cold I use the seat heater as the cabin heater will reduce the battery range by at least 1/2.. I pull over and let folks go by at every opportunity to avoid getting the horn blast and the one finger salute .. I voted for Ron Paul, I am not a supporter on this current administrations politics, but I have bought 348 gals of gas in the last 22 months .. I traded in a Benz and a honda for this thing so to keep from looking like an idiot for buying the thing I am maxing out its potential for gas savings .. The car isn’t for everyone but it fits my needs as I am 66 still working and drive to work and back and to the golf course and back home .. If good traveling mileage is your goal get a diesel Volkswagen not a volt .. My electric bill runs about 160$buck$ per month which includes about 1100 miles of driving .. For whatever its worth I have a rattle or two but the car handles and drives pretty well and it will GO when you punch the gas ,uh oh , … Hmmm.. The electric peddle ..
I’ll start by saying I am still geeked about my new Volt (nearly 3 weeks old now; haven’t put any gas in it yet), so I still have my new car bias which I will try to temper. I will also imagine that there have been improvements to the car between 2011 and 2013. Also, I live in Michigan, where we have been experiencing some very cold weather until the last few days. I have put about 450 miles on it so far, and yesterday was the first time the gas generator never kicked in until the battery ran out. It was in the low 40’s (downright balmy!) but I still used the cabin heater for ambient comfort to supplement the heated seats all day. I got 32 miles out of the battery from 100% to 0% while running the heater. I have read many reports of ‘halving the range’ with the heater on, but I think it would be a stretch to think I have seen even a 20% reduction – and we have had quite a number of days between 10 and 20 degrees. One day during slushy/snowy/blizzard conditions where traffic was very bad, the range was reduced by nearly 50%, though.
Looking at your numbers, you have gotten slightly better than 40 mpg on gas, and 135 mpg overall (ignoring the value of electricity). In Michigan, the electric rates are about 12.7 cents per KWh (with no special programs), and it looks like Texas ranges from 10 – 14 cents. Assuming you get the average of 2.7 miles per KWh at 12.7 cents, and using $4/gal, you have a lifetime energy expenditure of about $2944 so far. The best EPA rated VW diesel is 43 mpg highway, with many people reporting up to 50 mpg routinely. Using 50 mpg at $4/gallon you would have spent about $3760 on the VW for diesel. This is better than $800 savings in favor of the Volt, using optimistic values for the VW. (note: AAA reports diesel as 10 cents higher than premium in TX and 20 cents higher in MI [note: when I was a kid, diesel was always cheaper than regular – what ever happened to that???])
Further, in Michigan, there are programs that can reduce the cost of electricity by 30-60% by programming it to charge after 11:00 PM. I still have to sign up for that. Not sure if TX has similar programs.
From an energy expenditure perspective, I am thinking you are not looking like an idiot.
Dear Jim Spurr:
What happened to diesel was politicians seeing the opportunity to roll in more tax revenues. That’s the reason for the difference in gasoline and diesel prices–greatly increased taxes.
I appreciate your honesty in reporting on the diminishment of battery performance in the cold. This is a fact of physics that is always going to bedevil EVs.
I’m glad you’re enjoying your Volt, but the largest problem remains initial purchase cost, which even with a federal tax break of $7500.00 will not allow most owners to break even on fuel costs during the life of their vehicle when compared with the conventionally fueled, high mileage vehicles against which any EV competes. Remove that tax break, as will surely occur one day, and perhaps even sooner than the Obamites would prefer, or end up having to replace a Volt battery pack, and any comparison falls even more heavily against the Volt or any similarly priced EV.
The ultimate problem remains that the Volt–and surely more pricey EVS (virtually all of them) simply aren’t economically viable in the competitive marketplace.
Thanks for your comment!
Dear Fred:
Thanks for your honest and informative comment!
I got my onstar report for feb last week and I drove 1115miles … All electric … Didn’t realize that the generator never came on … I have mini split heating and cooling units in my 4000 sq foot 100 year old money pit I have been remodeling in between Houston and Austin and my electric bill was 158 buck$ last month .. 9.8 cents is what we pay on the bluebonnet coop network .. Like the volt, the mini splits are better coolers than heaters .. I despise the thought of being obligated to folks for my source of transportation .. The idea of driving past the gas stations to the golf course or to work makes me feel good .. Now if I could get past the plumber and electrician that would be priceless .. Bottom line, folks down here pay 38,000 to 45,000 buck$ for large diesel trucks and spend 400 to 500 buck$ per month .. The volt must in the long run be by far a better deal .. Get my money back? , I’m 66 years old … I might … Fred
I forgot to say about the large diesel pickups that they pay “400 to 500 buck$ per month for fuel on top of the cost of the vehicle ” .. Sorry , my thoughts got lost when I reminded myself about the plumber and electrician .. Fred
I own a Chevy Volt. Bought it in September, have driven 5000 miles and am still on my 1st tank of gas. Best driving car I’ve ever owned. Regular gas just hit $4.00 per gallon, so right now I am pocketing $120/month in gas savings. My employer lets me charge at work for free so I rarely have to foot the electricity bill, but even if I couldn’t, it uses about .25kWh of electricity / mi. At $.11/kWh (my rate) that works out to less than $.70/day vs. $4.00/day for gas. As for the government tax credit, I’ll happily take it. Corporations get tax credits all the time out of my pocket, so I’ll gladly take some back. After credits, dealer rebates, state rebates and selling my old car for around $6K, this car cost me about $21K. Go ahead and bash it, but I will tell you that I’ve never been happier with a vehicle I’ve owned.
Dear Scott:
Welcome to SMM and thanks for your comment. As I say to everyone that write in to praise the Volt, I’m glad it’s working out for you. My point has never been that no one should buy one or that they wouldn’t meet anyone’s needs. The Volt–and similar vehicles–are niche products. Too expensive for most people, not nearly flexible enough for most–particularly as the only car in the family–and supported almost entirely by taxpayer funds, it’s a product that would likely not exist–or exist long–in the free market.
So, continued good luck with your Volt, but as happy as you are to take government cash, I, as one providing a portion of that cash, am not happy providing it for you.
Don’t understand why buying a volt is a negative thing .. Price was high but they are coming down .. I have 66234 miles on mine and it turns 3 in a week .. Bought less than 400 gals of gas so far .. Good driving car .. Most everything works very well .. Have issues with not being able to turn the radio completely off .. Starter fob goes on the blink from time to time which is really frustrating , but over all a good experience .. I drove 62.2 miles yesterday , which is a bit far for my comfort level , but golf did beckon so I went .. Used .3 of a gallon of gas .. The computer says I am averaging life time 175 per gallon of gas used .. Trips to the austin airport are killing me as that is 182 mile round trip .. Murders my mileage .. I have done one oil change , but the computer said I still had 50% life left , did it anyway .. Tires are 50% .. It needs washing .. I’d like to own another one .. My second car is a 2004 mercury villager van with 167000 miles on it and has been a good car .. But It has started making old car noises a lot .. Tax dollars, it’s good to give them to me as I have reached retirement age and need the help .. I am making old car/man noises as well ..
Dear Fred haile:
Thanks for your comment. As I’ve often said, my primary complaint with the Volt in particular is that I’m subsidizing it. It may not be a negative thing for those who can afford it and are willing to live with its unique qualities. I’m sure you would agree that it cannot meet the needs of most Americans on price alone.
Thanks again, from one making old man/car noises as well.
Actually, you are not subsidizing it. I got NO taxpayer money for buying my Volt. I was given a Taxes credit, and was, therefore, allowed to keep more of my own money for buying it.
I get no reduction in taxes for buying a home or raising kids. Do you take either of thise? Do you get either of those? Busines Taxes reduction? Does your company take a Taxes dedction for your health insurance? Do you consider that, using yoour logic, that is me subsidizing your health insurance.
As for the economics, the upfront cost of my Volt was high. I got about $11,000 in consliderations from the govt, power company, and GM.
The electricity to drive 25.8 miles round trip to work costs me about 50 cents. My Acura cost about $4.50 for the same trip. I’ll let you do the math on that to figure out the cost of ownership over 5 years.
In addition to those saving, I have the satisfaction of knowing the no serviceman needs to fight and die or be maimed to get the tiny amounts of oil I use. My hard earned dollars are not being shipped to Alaska and Texas. Fracking is not needed for my car, not is deep water drilling in the Gulf of Mexico.
Think of those maimed servicemen and women(I provide care for them and think of them daily) each time you start your gas guzzler. (I define gas guzzler as any car that uses more than the 60 gallons I used last year to go 12500 miles).
I love my Volt!
Sorry about the typos. I hit ‘send’ before proofreading.
I’ve enjoyed reading this comment thread. It’s kind of funny to see Mike McDaniel slowly losing his argument over the years as actual Volt drivers dispel his misinformed “facts” and as the amount of satisfied Volt drivers out there exponentially increases. Obviously Mike wrote a whole article bashing the Volt without even spending any time driving the car or actually validating his “information”.
“the Volt manages only about 25 mile per charge under ideal conditions.”
This couldn’t be any farther from the truth. While I’m sure under some extreme weather conditions getting only 25 miles is possible, here in hot Southern California as a Volt owner, I consistently get 45+ miles out of a charge driving in our typical summer weather, with the AC blasting (great AC in these cars BTW).
And as far as the price, I’m sure you know MSRP is now $34,170 for a very well equipped “base” model. After tax breaks assuming you are a terrible negotiator with your car dealer, you’re looking at the most $26,670. Plus on top of that many states/localities have their own tax breaks, such as $1500 in California, which drops the price to at the most $25,170. This is a pretty reasonable price to pay for a car with this much technology, that saves me hundreds of dollars a month in gas, and rides so smooth it’s like driving a luxury car. Plus the fact that I’ve gone from having to visit my local oil change shop every 3 months, to now I go years between oil changes. And in regards to this terrible fire danger that Mike speaks of, now that there are 60,000+ of these cars on the road there aren’t any known fire related incidents (at least that I can find) so I think we can conclude this is a non issue. Nevermind the thousands of gasoline related fires that happen to ICE vehicles every year.
Now some may not like these federal/state/local tax breaks. Let’s nevermind the billions of $$$$ we give in tax breaks to the oil companies please. I personally don’t mind seeing my government investing in newer/cleaner technology. These tax breaks were a big reason why I chose to give an electric vehicle (EV) a try. But after owning a Chevy Volt, I don’t think I could ever go back to a “normal” car. Being able to “fuel” up at home for 1 dollar in 8 hours from a standard 110 outlet. Being able to go months without visiting a gas station. I love it, and can never go back. As more Americans take advantage of these tax breaks and give EV’s a try I can easily see these vehicles slowly being embraced by mainstream drivers who will be creating/influencing a whole new generation of drivers who will have no interest in owning a gasoline only powered vehicle. Plus it’s nice to see the average Joe getting a tax break for once instead of Chevron/Exxon.
Finally, this car is made in the good ol USA, in Hamtramck, Michigan, of 45%+ American made parts, by an American owned car company, I feel good supporting American manufacturing, by an American company.
I understand that politically motivated bloggers such as Mike don’t like president Obama, and try to find anything they can to help spread their dislike, however I think we can all conclude by now that this was a huge saawwing and miss by Mike McDaniel, nice try though. Go USA!!
Dear Joe:
As I’ve often written, for those that have a Volt and enjoy it, good for them. I write about electric vehicles in general, and the Volt in particular, because of the taxpayer subsidies–to this day–still absolutely necessary to prop up the entire EV industry. Because my tax dollars–in part–go to support vehicles that would otherwise be entirely economically unviable, I’m entitled to an opinion. It wouldn’t matter to me whether it was a Republic or Democrat administration wasting those tax dollars. There is no such thing as free money. The tax break for an average Joe of which you speak is granted via involuntary wealth distribution.
I’m afraid that one day, you’ll have to go back to a non-electric car. One day, General Motors will find itself living under a system where political pressure, wealth distribution and unicorn farts are not the backdrop of business, and the Volt, as a vehicle that has never made a penny for GM, will go the way of unicorn farts. This is not so because evil Republicans want to pollute and destroy the planet, but because reality demands we use the technologies that are affordable and efficient.
Despite living and traveling daily in the Dallas/Ft. Worth metroplex, I still see few, if any Volts. In fact, the Volt I saw a few weeks ago was the first I’d seen in more than a year. Coincidence? Perhaps. But Volt sales remain a fraction of what manufacturers rationally consider minimal economic viability. Many models–the Chevy Avalanche comes to mind–have been discontinued with many times the sales of the Volt.
Losing the argument? As always, I’ll leave that to readers.
Thanks for your comment and good luck with your Volt.
Thanks for your reply Mike, to be honest, I’m just tired of my billions of dollars of tax money going toward propping up the oil industry who are already some of profitable companies in the world while they seek out a non sustainable product out of the ground while polluting our environment in the process. And sorry alternative fuel vehicles are here to stay, it’s really the only way forward for human kind.
I just purchased a used 2011 Chevy Volt. I absolutely love this car. I was spending close to $400 a month on gas in my Chrysler 300. My work commute is 40 miles a day and the volt costs $.80 to go that 40 miles. What used to cost me over $400 a month in gas now only costs me $30 a month in electric.
Maintenance is nil, you can go a year and a half without needing an oil change, you never go through brake pads because you’re using regenerative braking most of the time. There’s a lot of talk about the cost of the drive battery to replace, but if you Google the part number for the battery you find over 15 or 20 websites that have it for around $2,500. I put over 2,400 miles on my volt since I owned it and only burned 15 gallons of gas because I went on some long road trips. And when it switches to the internal combustion engine I can get anywhere from 42 to 50 miles a gallon depending on how much is gained with regenerative braking. And the performance of the car is way underrated, it really moves off the line, I mean quick, it silently pulls away from the pack and It’s got plenty of torque and power at the high-end too. Everybody that has a commute thats 60 miles or less can really from benefit from owning this car. It just really works out well. And before I purchased the car I did some research and I did not find one unhappy volt owner. The technology is certainly there’s and no denying that it really works, they just have to start making them a little bit more afordable.
I should say that “just purchased” meaning I had the car since June.
Also forgot to add that I get over 40 miles on a charge and although I have the option to plugin at work free of charge I have made the 40 mile round trip serveral times without plugging in at work. I know that battery range goes down in the cold winter months but there are things you can do to extend it like pre-warm the car why it’s on the charger, keep a little more air pressure in the tires, drive in low (low mode adds aggressive renerative braking) and drive more conservatively.
I’ve had my Volt for 34 months and 38, 000 miles. I’ve changed the oil twice and have had no other maintenance expenses except car washes and adding windshield washer fluid.
I save about $3 every day in gasoline expenses.
And in regards to the tax subsidies, you need to be middle class to afford these cars, they are taxing the heck out of the middle class either-way, we pay for everyone else’s kids to go to college, meanwhile we go into debt up to our eyeballs in student loans, etc,.. it’s about time that we get something back from the money that they seem so hell bent on taking from us.
Dear Mark G.:
And who, exactly, is we, Kimosabe? Very few members of the middle class can afford a Volt, even with taxpayer subsidies. The best information indicates that Volt buyers are in the very top percentile of wage earners, not the middle class. Our middle class tax dollars are supporting them.
Hogwash! I got not a single dollar from the middle class to buy my Volt. I was, however, able to “keep more of my hard earned dollars” with a reduction in taxes.
Dear Biber Walter E:
And where do you think that tax reduction came from? There is no such thing as free money, whether that money is bestowed in a tax reduction, a direct payment, or a payment to GM, it still comes out of taxpayer’s pockets, and considering something less than 50% pay no federal income tax, if it’s not the middle class making up much of the tax burden, who is?
A couple of points:
1) Who are these ‘informed’ sources ? The thing about complex accounting for enormous companies and complex products is that numbers can be spun to produce almost any conclusion you want to present. From a purely production cost basis, there is very little difference between a Prius (or any other hybrid for that matter) and a Volt – – except for the Battery itself. It’s not like it relies on unobtainium that has to be imported from Mars. So unless Toyota and all the other car companies have been incurring similar losses for the last decade (or each battery costs over $40,000), it seems extremely unlikely that the losses are anywhere near $47,000 much less $200,000. Perhaps those numbers were calculated by including the entire new-product investment early in the program across only a few cars that had been sold at that time. Those estimated loss numbers have been around for awhile. Almost all new products will show large losses per unit when burdening early sales numbers with new program development costs. Those are sunk costs and are irrelevant to financial futures.
2) The debate over who gets what tax benefits at whose expense is like debating which waves in the ocean are impacted by buckets of water scooped out or poured back. The taxpayer funded Volt rebates, in TOTAL since inception amount to less than 10% of the ANNUAL taxpayer funded subsidy for the gas & oil industry. Further, the complexity of the tax code makes it impossible to specifically assign burden. You could say the Volt program has cost every man, woman, and child in the USA less than $2.00 each in TOTAL, while they each subsidize the oil & gas industry to the tune of more than $20.00 PER YEAR. There are many many other subsidies that we are all covering. Where is the outrage on all those? – – those that cost you and me significantly more than the 0.004% of our taxes that the Volt costs us. This debate point is tired and weak.
I ‘m shocked. Shocked! I thought Tea Baggers loved tax reductions.
If it makes you feel better, I still paid a higher percentage of my income in taxes that year(the year I bought my Volt) than both Romney and Obama.
Dear Biber Walter E:
You like tax increases?! I’m shocked, shocked!
Note: somehow my reply to Mike McDaniel’s post/reply to Mark G on 28Aug @ 17:13. Not sure how it got here – – my apologies.
Dear jspurr01:
Not to worry. The ways of the Internet are mysterious.
Sorry to comment so much here but I just have say that the Volt is a misunderstood car because of articles like this. When I read articles like this one that say, “The Volt’s real world electric range in real world driving conditions is apparently about 25 miles” and it only gets 32MPG in range extended mode, The car just doesn’t make sense at all. in fact after reading articles like this one I thought that it was a stupid, stupid car and a waist of the engineer’s time that worked on it. I really thought it was just a gimmick setup only to meet the presidents green intuitive.
When it was time to replace my old Chrysler 300, I did research to find a new or used car with the best fuel economy. The Volt kept coming up. I said, “ok, I’ll bite”. So I started checking out posts from Volt owners that said that they continually get 40 miles or more per charge (which works perfect for my daily commute) and how they forget what a gas station pump looks like , etc.,.. I went on YouTube and saw videos of Volt owners doing one and two year reviews, confirming that the range and the low cost of maintenance. Saw post of owners saying how much they love the car.
Now I still do not have 40k to purchase the car new but found many 2012 and 2011 Volts in the 24k-19k range. I purchased a used fully loaded certified pre-owned 2011 Volt with 30k miles for $19,600. I was pleased to find that I get 40 miles plus on a charged that cost me only $.80. When the battery is depleted and switches to the gas engine I get at least 42 mpg highway and much better off the highway, my best was over 57 MPG. My average combined MPG to date is over 173 MPG (owing the car for 3 months), that number will continue to climb because I made a few long trips that required to run on gas when I first got it but my everyday commute is all electric.
My point with this long winded reply is the car technology really does work and can truly reduce our need for foreign oil (and I’m a conservative) Even purchasing the car new at full price (including the tax incentives) most owners will see a savings. The only thing keeping sales down that I can see is the bad press and misinformation being spread about the car. When they make this car with a 50 mile EV range for $30k it should really change everything, if the bad press doesn’t shoot it down.
It really is time that we get the foot of the oil companies off or our necks. When the price of oil goes up they make billions in profit and Americans suffer, it’s time to end it.
Dear Mark g.:
That’s not a problem. We’re glad to have you.
My overall concern is the lack of economic viability of the Volt and similar vehicles. Informed sources indicate that each Volt loses anywhere from $47,000 to $200,000 for GM. This is hardly sustainable, nor is it the technology that is going to break the oil companies. One day, and I suspect it won’t be long after Barack Obama is out of office, GM will quietly make the Volt go away. At the same time, taxpayer subsidies for EVs will also go away, and when that happens, well, that’s pretty obvious.
Just got 63 miles on a charge, in PHX AZ.
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I’m just gonna leave this right here: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/08/zero-first-generation-chevrolet-volt-battery-packs-have-been-replaced-for-degradation/
68000 miles on my FIRST Volt and have spent zero dollars,on repairs.
Now also own a generation 2 Volt and GM HIT A HOME RUN AGAIN.
Dear W Biber:
Welcome to SMM. I’m glad your Volts have worked out for you. Could I have my share of the government subsidies you received, please?
I would be delighted to give it to you in exchange for my share of any home mortgage or child rearing tax reductions you have benefited from and if you rebate my share of the cost of the gulf wars to secure gas for your car and my share of the health care I’m required to pay for for veterans disabled protecting the oil for your car.
If we price each life at a million bucks and multiply that by 6000 lives lost in your oil wars, can I have a share of that?
I assume you are a climate denier, so I won’t ask for money from eco savings from you.
I also assume you’re a big of Milton Friedman, so can I also get my share of your savings from lower prices on gasoline purchases since my Volt helped lower them.
By the way, I just bought my second Volt, so once I get your check, I’ll send you even more when get my tax reduction for that one.
Dear W bibee:
Cute reply, however, from where did the power come to build your Volts, mine the rare earths for its batteries, and transfer electricity to your home? What about the petroleum products used to make the plastics and rubbers in the vehicle? You should be sufficiently well versed in history to know that we took not a barrel of oil from the Gulf wars, and our current oil and natural gas boom is in spite of, rather than with the assistance of, Mr. Obama. Climate denier? I don’t trust so-called “scientists” that manipulate and destroy data, lie, intimidate others, and refuse to provide their methods and data sets. It just so happens many of them are climate change doomsayers.
My position is simple and consistent. Electric vehicles are not ready for prime time. While they meet the needs of some, the technology is not sufficiently mature to replace conventional vehicles. They are too expensive, their range is too short, and absent enormous government subsidies–and pressure–they wouldn’t be built at all. GM has never made a cent on a Volt, in fact, they’ve lost truckloads of money on them. If your Volts work for you, that’s fine, but I’d prefer people buy such vehicles on their own, and not with help from taxpayers.
Well, those wars were only fought to protect the oil you use in your car. We produce plenty here for my needs. My power comes from a nuclear plant and my car charges during low demand times at night (2-6AM) so no extra generation/distribution capacity is needed.
The materials from my battery can be reused. Think of all the rare earth metals saved if we hadn’t needed to fight to protect oil for your old technology vehicle. Think of how many young men and women who would be alive, but who died for the noble cause of keeping you well supplied in oil.
I treat the survivors every day and see firsthand the results.
Dear Wbiber:
Dear God, please tell me you don’t lecture them on their folly as you’ve politicized an article on the relative merits of EVs? You don’t taunt them about being injured for oil?
Don’t discuss political issues with anyone at work.
When I work with them, however, I become more determined we need to free ourself from our lust for cheap oil.
Oil users should pay for ALL the costs of using oil, not just production, shipping, and refining costs.
Mike, you’ve been feeding at the trough for too long.
Dear Ebiber:
The trough of present and foreseeable future reality, indeed.
Dear god. It’s 2016, and not one volt battery has been replaced due to degradation. So Mike, are you still so concerned??
I know this is an old post, but I’ll admit it made me laugh and scared at the same time that people are so single minded and afraid of moving forward.
Tesla and the second generation volt, and now the Bolt and all the others joining would never exist with people like you. I’m getting 250+ miles a gallon with my Volt.
Never once did you even mention environmental impact.
Dear Eric:
I’ve never said EVs shouldn’t be built, I’ve instead objected to taxpayer dollars being used to keep them afloat when they can’t survive without it in the marketplace. Afraid of moving forward? Not at all, however, as I’ve also repeated pointed out, EV technology isn’t sufficiently mature to even think of replacing conventional vehicles in any significant way. Just two more quick points: I’ve frequently written on environmental impact, and despite the blind faith some put in EVS, they are far from environmentally friendly. After all, they’re not manufactured with fairy dust, nor are they recharged by unicorn farts. Finally, batteries do degrade, and Volt batteries will do the same. One of the biggest problems all EVs have is they cannot sidestep the laws of physics. I’ve never listed any timetable for EV battery replacement, merely observed when they inevitably fail, they’ll be very costly to replace.
Thanks, and welcome to SMM!
More of Mike’s Magnificent Malarkey.
What would happen to old technology autos if they had to pay their true cost, including trillions for the wars to secure their oil and trillions more to care for disabled vets ( some for the next 80 Yrs.). Isn’t it more fair to say that without this huge subsidy the antiquated gasoline powered autos would disappear?
Electric vehicles are a great bargain for the taxpayer.
Concerning the technology. If I understand your argument it is that because some energy and materiels are used to produce electric autos, they are no better than the model T system in place on gasoline autos which use far more.
Mike, do you know what your radiator is for. It’s to get rid of the waste heat from the inefficient way you use energy.
Batteries on electric cars are already outliving the cars. There are some very old Prius’ on the road now. Many are retiring with life left in the old bateries.
As we exit the Obama administration I note that you were wrong on most every point. I own a volt, my favorite car, and all repairs have been nominal. I have over 80k miles on my 2013.
In your world I guess sending our children to foreign lands to die on foreign soil to protect petroleum supplies is “smarter” than investing in clean, renewable energy. Good for you unless it’s your son or daughter that dies.
Dear Stephen Kaufman:
“Wrong on most every point?” Let’s see: Volts are not nearly flexible enough to replace conventionally powered vehicles? That remains true. GM loses money–enormous amounts of money–on every Volt it builds? Still true. Volts are too expensive for most people to consider buying? No change there. Due to their inherent complexity, it costs more to repair Volts than conventional vehicles? As true now as then. GM has canceled production on vehicles that not only made a profit, but sold far, far more units than Volts? Still the same. Volt’s are a niche product for people in the upper reaches of income–something like the evil 1%? Unquestionably the case. Volt batteries are insanely expensive? Still the case. Taxpayers are forced to subsidize the choices of a select few? Still true. I could go on and on, but I trust you get the point.
I’m glad your Volt has worked for you. I’ve said from the beginning of my writings about EVs that if an EV meets one’s needs and one can afford it, go for it. I still object to having to pay for the driving choices of others.
And the dying for petroleum trope? Please. Identify a single barrel of oil seized from Iraq. Afghanistan? Libya? Syria? From whence does the electricity to manufacture Volts come? What provides the electricity to charge them? The electricity to make tires, batteries, all the plastics in the vehicles? I assume you are now delighted at the election of Donald Trump who promises to fully develop America’s domestic oil supplies, and all other energy sources, therefore completely removing any necessity of fighting in foreign lands to protect petroleum?
My concerns about EVs are not personal, Stephen. When I see one of the very few Volts I’ve ever seen on the highways, I don’t sneer at their drivers, nor do I have to suppress an urge to lecture them. May I suggest you’ll find life less stressful if you don’t erect hostile straw men?
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